In this episode, Scott Weeman, founder of Catholic in Recovery, and Father Sean Kilcawley, a priest in the Diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska, introduce themselves and the purpose of the podcast. They discuss their personal experiences with addiction and recovery, emphasizing the importance of honesty, surrender, and finding truth-tellers in the process. They also touch on the challenges of denial, both personally and within families, and offer advice for those seeking help. The episode concludes with an invitation for listeners to submit questions and to seek help through 12-step recovery programs and the Catholic in Recovery community.

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SCOTT WEEMAN Welcome to the Catholic in Recovery Podcast. My name is Scott Weeman, founder of Catholic in Recovery, and I’m joined by Father Sean Kilcawley, a priest in the Diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska. We are here to serve a bi-weekly dose of honest and authentic dialogue on a range of topics related to 12-step recovery and the Catholic faith based on our personal, pastoral, and clinical experience serving individuals and families impacted by addictions, compulsions, and unhealthy attachments. This is our premiere episode, and we’re grateful that you’re tuning in. Father Sean, how are you today?

FR. SEAN KILCAWLEY I’m doing well, Scott. It’s great to be with you. And it’s always a pleasure to be with you. I’m looking forward to our discussion today.

SCOTT WEEMAN Mm-hmm, me too. This has been a few years in the making I think we’ve been discussing the thoughts and ideas of collaborating on a podcast or some form of content, but really have landed on a podcast. And that’s been part of our discussion for a while. We recorded a pilot episode probably like nine months ago. And that with the seeing where that might take us. And, but here we are today, eager to share some.

FR. SEAN KILCAWLEY Yeah, I was just thinking about I can’t remember the first time you reached out to me. It was probably like six or seven years ago, almost. I think it might have been right after your book came out. But I remember just being impressed with you because you called and you basically said, so I’ve listened to some of your talks and I think I could work with you. But I just had this sense that I was being vetted. And but I appreciate that. I appreciated that because I would tend to do the same thing. And so, yeah, so I see this as a fruition of a friendship that’s been building for a long time, too.

SCOTT WEEMAN Yeah, and hopefully that comes through in the dialogue that we share and the, you know, topics that we get into, somewhat personal, somewhat pastoral or clinical. And we’ll try to keep it light at times as well. We are both fans of football teams, professional football teams that play in the same division, which will probably, that might surface at some points as well. Not sure how much of an appetite our audience would have for NFL football reviews and analysis. It’ll be appropriately inserted.

FR. SEAN KILCAWLEY I think that I think that’d be great. We I think, you know, we might draw like people that are into football reviews and analysis that also need the rest of our content. So you never know. Yeah.

SCOTT WEEMAN There you go. I never thought of that part. So yeah, as this is our first episode, a couple of things, just noting about the podcast, we’re going to begin airing episodes every other week. Perhaps if, listener-ship or demands it, or if our schedules allow for it, we may start to record and air more frequently. I should note that you can listen to the audio of this podcast on all major podcast platforms and watch the video stream on the Catholic in Recovery YouTube channel. And listeners, we would be grateful if you subscribe to the podcast on your podcast feed and subscribe to the Catholic in Recovery YouTube channel, which helps us spread the word and share a message of hope with individuals and families impacted by addictions, compulsions, and unhealthy attachments. You can also sign up to be notified when new podcast episodes are released by going to catholicinrecovery.com slash podcast.

SCOTT WEEMAN Father Sean, what, so who, if someone didn’t know who you were, which maybe seven years ago when I recall actually, yeah, kind of getting back to the origins of this, I was, you know, as Catholic in Recovery was founded, we started our first Catholic in Recovery meeting in 2017 in San Diego. My book was published later that year in 2017 and then started getting inquiries from people who were interested in learning about Catholic in Recovery, perhaps starting new groups and there were two or three within a couple of months where someone said Father Sean Kilcawley has referred me to Catholic in Recovery and then you know that pattern. I mean need to find out who this Father Sean Kilcawley guy is. So who is, who are you Father Sean?

FR. SEAN KILCAWLEY Mm-hmm. So thanks. I am a priest of the Diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska. And, so I’ve been in a priest for about 19 years and I grew up in Michigan actually. So I actually grew up in a family that was steeped in recovery literature. I had a grandfather who, he was in recovery from alcoholism. He was very open about that. Lots of dinner conversations revolved around it. He actually used to love to tell the stories about how he would, you know, get calls to go and even help clergy. And he passed away in 2000, around 2013. So may he rest in peace. And then my father was also in Alcoholics Anonymous. And so, I remember being a kid and just seeing like the One Day at a Time book and things like that in the bathroom, and so I sort of grew up around those kinds of principles. And after high school, I went to the military academy at West Point studied Arabic and Middle Eastern studies. I graduated in 1996. I was an infantry officer in the army for three years active duty before leaving the military to go to the seminary. And so I entered the seminary in 1999, was ordained in 2005. And then in 2009, the Bishop sent me to study at the John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage & Family in Rome. And really, studying there was a catalyst for, just an amazing journey of conversion and healing and recovery in my own life. And it was an experience of like the truth, and goodness of the church’s teaching. Kind of shining a light on all the places in my own heart that wasn’t living the church’s teaching. And you know, I’m from a family where there’s lots of divorces. I have four half brothers, four half sisters. I’m the only child from my parents and so there was just a lot of, there was a lot of healing I needed that I didn’t know I needed. And it was in 2012 that I finally, had the courage to ask my Bishop if I could go to counseling that summer. And so I spent three months, in counseling. I started going to Al-Anon meetings at that time in my life. And then I came back to the diocese. I finished my degree in 2013 came back to the diocese. And then for 10 years, I was the Family Life Office director. And at that time, I just had a lot of people coming to me because they would come to a Theology of the Body conference and then realize like, I have this lust problem in my life. And so people started coming to ask me questions or to seek help with pornography addiction or pornography addiction within their marriage or help with their kids. And it was pretty overwhelming, but I, by God’s grace, met some really great people that are certified sexual addiction therapists. And they recommended that I do this certification program through IITAP or the International Institute for Trauma & Addictions Professionals. So I’m this pastoral sexual addiction practitioner, supervisor, which means that I can do like assessment and treatment planning for sexual addiction. I ended up like working with a lot of people in the initial phases and then trying to get them referred out. And it’s really like one of, it might be the heaviest and most joyful thing in my life, because on the one hand, I ended up carrying a lot of people’s stuff. And on the other hand, I get to see the lights turn on in their eyes when they really encounter the Lord and, that’s really kind of a simple way. I’m sure we’ll talk about this throughout the podcast that I’ve come to recognize that the recovery process is a conversion process. And really what you see is the fruit of conversion in people who recover. And, I was just meeting with somebody the other day and he was reading a spiritual book. I think he was reading a book by St. Teresa of Avila or St. Thérèse of Lisieux and, really like all she talks about is gratitude and surrender. And then he’s been going to meetings lately and he’s like, meetings are just like talking about the same things as St. Thérèse. And I was like, yeah, exactly. It’s just kind of a sneaky way to get you to recognize that as if for the first time, so your heart can grab onto it. So that was probably a longer answer, but that’s a snapshot, of who I am. So what about you, Scott? Like how did, how did our Lord bring you to this place?

SCOTT WEEMAN Yeah, I am. And we’ll probably spend some time in future episodes diving deeper into each of our stories. But, you know, I also grew up in the Midwest, northeast WI, and in a family that whose my family tree is littered with bottles and alcoholism and didn’t know anyone in sobriety or recovery growing up. All I knew was active alcoholism. And in fact, if you Google the 10 drunkest counties in the United States, you’ll find a heat map of exactly right where I grew up. And this is part of the culture. And I thought almost like a right of adulthood to drink. And began drinking in high school, 17. Grew up with a strong social life and family. Parents also divorced when I was about 10 years old. And that had its own challenges and you know, I think still may you know have adapted to life in response to that and still trying to untangle some of that and build, you know, some secure bonds and relationships in adulthood that might be challenged by some of the challenges growing up in that setting. But I loved the effect of alcohol and I went to college from moved from a small town northeast, WI to downtown Manhattan, NYC. I went to college on a policy debate scholarship, was in sports growing up, also in policy debate. And this brought what I thought was a new freedom to kind of get away from the challenges of family and the rules or structures that were there. And it took me three semesters before I lost my policy, my scholarship for debate. And just kind of went down into a, you know, the darkness of alcoholism and other addictions, struggled with know drugs, marijuana, some harder drugs, cocaine and other things. Certainly also got involved and not, I say got involved as if it’s like removing some personal responsibility but I began acting out pretty regularly in lustful ways and through pornography and inappropriate relationships with women and seeking security and yeah, good pleasure, certainly through relationships and through all that. And two DUIs is a challenge. After my second DUI at 21, went to an inpatient treatment program for about 15 days in WI. Kind of just to get my parents off my back. I was telling myself things that we’ll dive into later on, things like I’ve got to be too young to be an alcoholic. You know, this will just wear off. This is just a phase of life. I was comparing myself to other people’s behavior my age who were, you know, within a college setting acting belligerently, at least during the weekends. I didn’t know how to turn the party off though and kept chasing that throughout the week. Moved to San Diego, CA in 2010 when I was 25 years old and that was in hopes to keep a relationship alive. But the inevitability of that falling apart was that most of the challenges in the relationship were due to my addiction, alcoholism, dishonesty, manipulation. And so a year later, summer of 2011, that relationship fell apart and I sunk into a very isolated dark hole. Spent about a month and a half in just totally isolated drinking and drug use. And on October 10th, 2011, I walked into an AA meeting. It wasn’t my first, but it was really the first time that I surrendered. And I found the solution to my problem. And I’ll never forget the experience of walking into that early 7am meeting, which I could hear laughter and camaraderie above. There was like an outdoor walkway. And I thought if these people have any idea what I’m going through, there’s no reason for them to be laughing or joyful. And made my way up into the back corners of the room and participated in the meeting.

FR. SEAN KILCAWLEY Hmm.

SCOTT WEEMAN The morning meeting setting seemed to have really people who were very serious about their recovery and very serious about sharing the solution and also eager to help newcomers, which was a little bit strange at first. And after the meeting, a man darted across the room, looked me in the eye and said, “I know exactly how you feel. You don’t ever have to drink again.” And that seemed to cut through some shame and denial and other human factors that I was dealing with at the time. And that man saved my life. We went and got coffee immediately after that meeting and made a routine of going to a 7am And getting coffee afterwards. And he would teach me 12-step recovery principles. And we read through the big book, cross reference it with the Bible. In my big book, in the margins, our references to bible verses all over the place. Similarly, in my bible, our references to big book pages and really saw the, you know, helped me surrender, helped me find a relationship with God which certainly needed to be reformed. And found my way back to the Catholic Church where I grew up, although nominally, but was falling in love with Jesus, found a great young adult community in San Diego that helped really get me active in my faith life. And a few years into that, 2015, late 2014, early 2015, AA and 12-step recovery groups were saving my life and the church was bringing me salvation. I thought the church could learn from 12-step recovery and that there were plenty of people in 12-step recovery meetings who were longing for a deeper relationship with their higher power and began a website, catholicinrecovery.com, where really just writing some articles related to faith and 12-steps and overlapping topics. Six to eight months into that, a woman from Ave Maria Press reached out to me while I was working as a server at a restaurant and trying to still complete my bachelor’s degree and inquiring if I was interested in doing some more writing, which turned into a proposal for a book. Two years later, fall of 2017, that book was published, The Twelve Steps and the Sacraments. And in the process of putting that all together, really took what was just a website, did some local speaking in San Diego, but also knew that I didn’t want to be just a speaker or just like there was more to it than that. It’s really building community and finding fellowship and finding others and staying in relationship with people who are seeking freedom from alcoholism, drug addiction, food-related addictions, lust addiction, gambling, you name it. So we started our first Catholic in Recovery group in 2017 in San Diego and have since seen it grow to where now there are about 125 active Catholic in Recovery groups in person in the US and Canada, few in Mexico and about 70 weekly virtual meetings. Published the Catholic in Recovery Workbook in 2022. And now I have the privilege of sharing a podcast with Father Sean Kilcawley. We’ll certainly dive more into the developments and principles around Catholic in Recovery as we get into future episodes as well. I thought perhaps a little bit of background helpful for anyone who’s new to Catholic in Recovery, new to recovery. I think the beautiful thing about the podcast as well is that we are certainly two individuals, men, made in the image and likeness of God. I love, hopefully the principles that we share shine through more so than the two of us as personalities, if you will.

FR. SEAN KILCAWLEY Amen.

SCOTT WEEMAN And you know, I feel like we’ll dive into topics that take a look at how the church can best respond to the need for about addictions from individuals and families. You mentioned a bit of that and recognizing that and we’ll certainly share some from some personal experience and casting a vision for what the church can be and what we as individuals can do as we make up the church. So, yes, so that was probably a little bit longer than requested as well, but we’ll dive more into all of that. But this topic today that we want to introduce as we’re getting started, and we’ll, for these first few episodes, probably take a look at some various aspects of getting started with recovery. And there’s so much that we can dive into. We’ve got tons of, list of topics that are wide and deep that we will explore over future episodes. But as we talk about getting started in recovery, one thing that stands in our way of getting started in recovery is denial, personal denial, elements of denial. And how do we overcome that denial? How do we break through that thick layer of denial in order to find help for ourselves and perhaps support others who are actively seeking new life in recovery? Or maybe not even seeking recovery but certainly know of the existence of a problem. How would you define denial, Father Sean?

FR. SEAN KILCAWLEY I don’t know my favorite line is “denial is not just a river in Egypt”, but it’s I don’t know if I have a hard definition of it, but I know what it sounds like. You know like I was just thinking about my own, my own life, my own experience. So, I’m like five years sober from alcohol right now. Also in recovery from lust addiction and I, and I just thinking about like different at times and my life where like it was put in my, like the question was brought forth and I ignored it. I remember living in Nashville when I was a military officer and I was, I would like every Friday I would just go down and I would spend, you know, all night at the bars and probably both of those addictions are active at that time. Right. And my father had come to visit me who is, you know, he knows well what it looks like to be an alcoholic. And he just kept gently saying to me, maybe you should stop drinking whiskey. And I just in my head was like, maybe not. You know, like, I don’t really know why you keep saying that. And then like throughout like seminary, too, like I remember struggling with pornography, masturbation as a seminarian. Cause I struggled with it all the way up until I went to the seminary. So seminary doesn’t magically take it away. Nor does marriage magically take anything away. And I can remember my spiritual director saying something like, so like, do you think it’s a problem that you’re still struggling with this? And I was like, well, I mean, I think if I’m still struggling with it, like in a couple of years, then that would be a problem. And I know that I’ve been free for like, you know, I was free for nine months once, so I know I can do it again. And at the time, you know, that person that I was talking to, they just sort of went along with what I said, like, oh yeah, that sounds right. And I kind of look back and I often say like, I would never have let me go to the seminary. Or if I was like my own spiritual director back then, I probably would have said something like, “Well, if you can stop now. Like, why are you still doing that?” and so, I think that like, sometimes there’s the denial of, I don’t have a problem or I can control it or I can control and enjoy my behavior, or that it’s not actually a problem and what I had to come to terms with, especially like as somebody who was in formation to be a priest, I had to come to terms with the fact that like what I was doing was actually sinful behavior. You know, like it was something that we promised not to do anymore when we’re baptized. And every time we renew our baptismal promises, we’re saying like, renounce Satan and all his works and all his empty show. I’m not going to do this anymore. And I’m going to place my faith in God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and let him be my Redeemer. And I think that maybe I got twisted around and, well, like this is just kind of a bad habit and I’m really like belong to our Lord. And so there, there’s just like a million ways that our thinking can be, our thinking can be goofy and it wasn’t until I really got into 12-step recovery that I had a sponsor once who was very… he was very like I knew he cared about me and he was also like extremely direct with me. And he was very direct, like calling me to be more kind of like saying like… you said in your own story… Scott, like that somebody once said to you, “You don’t have to ever drink again.” And I think we all need people like that in our life who are willing to confront our “addict self”. Who’s just kind of always trying to get away with things. And that was an incredible gift to have people in my life that we’re able to speak the truth into those things.

SCOTT WEEMAN I think this spans into such various other layers. You mentioned a few regarding kind of our denial of the problem. I think one layer also includes a denial that the solution will work for us. You know, and thinking that, you know, okay, there are people who have found freedom from alcoholism, lust addiction, food-related addictions, other things, but that’s not me, or that can’t be me, or I’m too complex for some of these simple yet not easy practices or ideas. You know I think just even being awoken, think that we have certainly all this, a lot of the stems from pride as well. We can draw it back to, you know, our pride and the idea that I’ve got it under control. Yes, I could quit if I wanted to. I mean, I think that’s one of the most probably common expressions of denial is, well, yeah, maybe this is causing some problems or if that admission even takes place, but someone thinking to themselves, which I thought in my past as well, that if this gets too bad, I can stop on my own. And then continually making rationalizations or justifications for why today is not the day that I need to stop. In fact, I remember about six months before I got sober, I had some friends visiting San Diego and we all went to a San Diego Padres game, got inebriated and had a friend pick us up to be a sober driver, although it turns out he was not sober even as he picked us up. And we got into a car accident and he, the driver, stopped drinking, just stopped drinking, recognize that was, you know, this is his wake up call. And I wasn’t there yet. I kept thinking, well, I wasn’t the one that was driving. I was sitting in the passenger seat. You know, I got injured from the accident and none of this would have taken place if not, you know, the events that had turned to it or led to it. But I was like, well, you know, good for him. He maybe probably does need to quit drinking. It’d probably be better for him. Although even then though I was thinking he was a person who I enjoyed sharing drinks with and I was, you know, selfishly thinking to myself, well, that’s, you know, time with him is not going to be as fun as it used to be, which is such an illogical and such a selfish thought. But, know, that was as a self-centered individual, one of my first thoughts and, know, things really get bad, if I was the driver in this situation or things get even worse, then I, you know, I will take the action needed, but really hoping, cause I couldn’t foresee a life that was either joyful or meaningful or free without alcohol, drugs, other addictive behaviors. I thought that my freedom was contingent upon my engagement with some of these substances and behaviors.

FR. SEAN KILCAWLEY Yeah. And as you were talking, I was thinking about, I think even in my own experience, there’s the, there’s a denial that sounds like, well, it’s, I know it’s a problem, but as long as I’m willing to pay the penalty, it’s okay. Right? Like sort of like, is it immoral to speed? Well, I don’t know. Is it immoral to go five miles an hour over the speed limit on the highway when nobody’s around? Probably not a mortal sin, but you have to be willing to pay the penalty. And that’s, it’s a moral theology argument. It’s given a lot. And I think there are certain circumstances where, you know, like one of the criteria for addiction is that, you know, it interferes with work, family relationships or friendships. It’s something that I have consequences for and I keep doing it anyways. And I think there’s a way in my head that I was like, as long as I’m willing to pay the consequence, like it’s not really a problem. Like I just have to be willing to pay the penalty. So if I’m willing to be hung over tomorrow and suffer through the day, and I’ll offer that up as a penance for, you know, whatever. And so there’s all kinds of like goofy things that go on in between our ears sometimes. And I think like for, those of us who are faithful Christians, I think there’s a lot of denial enters into like, what is my relationship with Jesus right now? And Jesus is really clear when he says things like, you can’t have two masters. You’ll either love one and hate the other. Right? And we can’t have two masters. And so like, can’t be in a discipleship relationship with our Lord and enslaved to sin at the same time. And I think sometimes at least my experience, it’s probably my personal experience and the experience of working with a lot of people of faith that are trying to be in recovery is that there’s a kind of denial that I’m enslaved to sin and I’m in need of a Redeemer or I’m in need of a Savior and it manifests like, I know Jesus died for me, but now I have to like fix myself. So I’m worthy or I’m like a really good guy or sometimes family members will say like, my husband is a holy man, but he’s like committing like things that are objectively gravely disordered actions, like on a periodic basis. So you can’t be like holy and enslaved to sin at the same time. Which might sound harsh, but at the same time, I do think it’s a more merciful approach because if we start from that place of I’m a sinner and we break through that denial and it’s just like, this is who I am. Then we can actually be repentant and if we’re actually repentant, then we can receive mercy in a way that’s transformative. But if I don’t approach our Lord from that place, that place of humility and reality and radical honesty, then I’m not as disposed to receiving mercy.

SCOTT WEEMAN Yeah, for me, denial, like you mentioned, looked like hiding from the truth, not embracing the truth, running away from the truth. If I was driving five miles over the speed limit, using continuing the metaphor that you presented, then I thought that I had, if I was going to get caught a very fast vehicle and was a skilled driver where I could outmaneuver whatever consequences might come my way, which led to greater consequences oftentimes. It allowed me to escape some short-term consequences, but then led to greater long-term consequences. And layers of that include, you know, personal relationship consequences. But deeper than that though, was the consequence of really losing myself, losing my relationship with God. I continued, and I see this oftentimes with people who struggle with addictions, I continued to lower my standards to meet my behavior rather than raising my behavior to meet my standards. And as a result, my relationship with God suffered. My perception of who God was in relationship to me in the world was changed. I saw God as this divine scorekeeper who was just keeping score and keeping a list of assets and liabilities. This led to a very shameful experience as well. And so in order to avoid those feelings and avoid the truth, I returned to my vomit and I returned to the source of my problems. And in this way, the problem and the solution were really seemingly the same thing for me. It wasn’t a solution at all. The only solution was that it kept me from experiencing the emotional and spiritual and cognitive consequences of my behaviors.

FR. SEAN KILCAWLEY So for you, what helped you break through that? Or how did our Lord break through that?

SCOTT WEEMAN Yeah, a lot of pain. I was in so much pain and willingness came when I had lost what was most important for me and to me. And at the time that was a relationship. And even though, you know, I spent about a month and a half in isolated drinking and drug use after that relationship took place, I thought that there was still hope, but wasn’t taking any action I would defer positive action till tomorrow, every single day and much like I’ve been told of a sign in New Orleans that says free drinks tomorrow and then know guy comes back and well you know sign still says “free drinks tomorrow” and where are the free drinks well they’ll be here tomorrow I kept putting away or putting off taking any kind of action until it was very clear that things were just totally falling apart and I was in absolute pain this woman who I was in a relationship with was no longer going to come back and that was clear. And just a window of grace that opened up and reached out to my parents, my mom and my dad. First reached out to a few very close friends back home. Told them what they already knew, which was that I needed help and something had to change and had dipped my toes in AA enough to know where I could go to find help and find the solution. And even though when I got there, I still wasn’t believing that the solution was going to apply to me. And still believe that I was going to be living myself with, living with this kind of 60 % handicap my whole life or more. In that I would be just having to do consequence damage or damage control of my consequences every so often. And that was just what life was going to look like until, you know, a moment of complete surrender took place. And to be honest, if I had delayed going to that meeting until the next day, I’m not sure that I would even be here today or that we would certainly be having this conversation today because cooperating with that grace, that window of grace and overcoming that denial. That wasn’t presented at all times. And as I mentioned, the man in the AA meeting who darted across the room said, “I know exactly how you feel. You don’t ever have to drink again.” That was just subtly different from the way that my concerned friends and parents and loved ones were speaking to me. But it was the first time that anyone ever spoke to me from a place of their own personal experience. And he shared with me what it was like for him and how he got help. And he made it very clear that I can’t do this on my own and that I can’t just commit a couple of days of strong recovery and all of a sudden have this thing figured out. But it was going to need consistency and persistence. And he was very persistent with me as well. He pursued me and would often quote John 15:16. I think he took it out of context a bit. But he would say, “For you did not choose me, but I chose you.” he also said, “You and I are going on a journey together, and neither one of us is coming back.” and I just could see a sense within the rooms, within this particular daily meeting that I went to, the hope of others, and they started caring for me in ways that, I mean, most of my relationships and friendships, having great friends back home and having, but most of my relationships at the time of my active, you know, when things got really bad, were really just centered around a debauchery for the most part. You know, it going to a guy’s house to pick up some weed, or it was meeting someone out at the bar, or talking to friends at work about what we were going to be doing after work. And there was just such a contrast to the way that people in recovery were speaking to me and speaking to each other that was humble and that was honest and that was open. And that seemed to... yeah, that was the medicine that I needed at the time. And I wanted more of it. And I made this short-term commitment and it had to be a one day at a time commitment. And I thought that the slogans at first were so trite and were so way too simple for a complex guy like me. I later and shortly thereafter began to fall in love with them, but I made a commitment to myself and I wasn’t great at following through in the commitments that I made, but I’m just going to not drink today. I would go to a 7am meeting. I knew I certainly could stay sober before 7am usually my alarm would go off at about 6:40 and I would just kind of dart down the road to the meeting and get my first cup of coffee there and set the agenda for my day with the help of God and those in recovery. And I just made a daily commitment, I’m not gonna drink today. And that stacked on top of each other those days began to bear fruit and my mind started to unwarp just slightly where I could look at what my life might look like long term without having a drink. All praise be to God. Now, you know, I see, I mean, don’t get me wrong, there are still some times where I battle with avoiding the truth and avoiding the reality of some things or I don’t want to pay attention to certain things. You know, life has become much different in the last 13 years. The gifts of recovery and my, you know, just presence in the church have... I met my wife in the church, not in recovery, but she was in a relationship with a man who was actively a drug addict before we started dating. So she had done a lot of work in Al-Anon and knew how to maintain some personal boundaries and really care for herself in the midst of that chaos and insanity. God has blessed me with three children and a move across the country from San Diego to Nashville. And sometimes I still want things to be the way that they used to be. And so even being able to adapt to new life and recovery, new phases of life, a new day, I oftentimes want to hold on to what was. And in a sense, that still is denial that needs to be broken through in order for me to truly, in order to truly surrender to God.

FR. SEAN KILCAWLEY Yeah. As you’re as you were talking, I was just filled with a lot of gratitude for me. There was there was like a lot of truth tellers over the years. I talked about my dad sort of saying, look, maybe you should quit drinking liquor. And I remember going to counseling early on in seminary and my counselor, for whatever reason, gave me the Big Book and the 12 and 12, and she just kind of gave them to me and said, you should maybe read these. And I remember her saying to me that like with alcoholism, sometimes you can drink and then the next day you can’t. And I remember thinking to myself like, that sounds like it’s not right. And I sort of banked it. Like it’s always just kind of lived in my memory, you know? And then 2012 rolls around and I realized like, I’m drinking too much. I gotta quit drinking liquor. So I quit drinking liquor in 2012 on that, like three months in therapy, went to, and I quit drinking everything for six months and then I started beer and wine again. And it was like a very strict sort of moderation management, like two, no more than four drinks, no more than 12 in a week. And I drink is a drink, right? So if I’m drinking like, Hoptimum, which is 10% alcohol, like that’s like four drinks, or I think it’s like two and a half drinks. So, I stayed faithful to that for a very long time. And then, I had this day around 2017, I know 2019 and I was pretty angry about some things and I was at a friend’s house and I had a beer and the first sip was just like, it felt like I was, I got done running a marathon and somebody handed me water. Like my body just was like, I need more of that. And I noticed that it tasted a little bit differently. And I had also had an older priest once tell me, you don’t have to go all way to the bottom of the escalator. And I just kind of banked that. And so that happened to me two days in a row. And then, and then I was like, this is what all those people were. And, that was my last drink, was actually St. Patrick’s Day, 2019 coincidentally. And even with like lust addiction, remember a priest once I was going to confession and he said something like, because I would talk about it, like something that happened to me instead of something I did. And we, and we tend to do that a lot with lust addictions. Like we use terminology, like I fell down or I fell. Like something like it happened. And because I’ll say like, I was this was going on, this was going on, this was going on. And it happened right as if it happened to me. And this priest that I was confessing to, he basically just said, you know, you have choices. And it just sort of. It was again, it was like one of those phrases that I had to bank. And then, getting into a program, getting a sponsor and the sponsor is, you know, having a sponsor who’s like, “Have you surrendered your life to God?” And I’m like, “Of course I have.” And then, and then he’s like, “Well, why aren’t you sober then?” And, then I’m like, “Uh, this is the worst!”.

SCOTT WEEMAN Mm.

FR. SEAN KILCAWLEY But the truth is he’s sober. I’m not sober. He must know something, I don’t know. And there is like another movement of my heart opening up, you know, to the truth of like who I am, who God is, what that relationship looks like. And again, like you said, we’re all susceptible to forgetting. I was talking to somebody the other day, cause I’ve just been letting anxiety get to me for about two weeks. And I was talking to him I just said, yeah, I’ve just had a bad couple of weeks. Like I forgot Jesus was Lord for a couple of weeks. And he was kind of like, whoaw, that’s like shocking to hear you say, and I was like, well, don’t act like nobody else has ever forgotten Jesus is Lord. Like, like I forgot Jesus is my Redeemer for a couple of weeks. And I started trying to be the Redeemer and ike I’ve got all these anxieties in my head that I’m worried about and I’m waiting for somebody to fix them. And I’m mad that nobody’s fixing them, but I haven’t actually asked God to fix them yet. Like the gospel this week was Bartimaeus who is unabashed and crying out Jesus, son of David have pity on me. And he’s just as no filter, no shyness about asking our Lord to save him. And that’s what I have to learn. And sometimes I forget that I need a Savior, I mean, I think all addicts, when we say addiction, whatever, like when we say “once an addict, always an addict” I think part of that is that we have a tendency to forget. And things creep back in. Or we go ahead.

SCOTT WEEMAN “Built-in forgetter” this was something that, yeah, as the man who saved my life, who gave a lot of, think, yeah, so the bottom line is find “truth tellers”. We need to find truth tellers, people who can speak to us the truth and in a way that we can believe it. And often leading with experience, strength, and hope is a great way for us to understand that and have the credibility to believe what other people are saying. The man who saved my life would often say, we have a “built-in forgetter” which leads us to euphoric recall or just remembering the good things about the drink, the drug, the lust, the food, and looks so short term that we’re only looking and we’re only envisioning how it’s going to provide relief in the moment. And, you know, one tool I think for overcoming denial or at least maintaining that commitment is to play the whole tape through, you know, recognizing what it’s going to be like if taking this drink. What is that going to actually lead to? When I was educated on the mental obsession and the physical allergy that accompanies most, if not all, addictions, compulsions, and unhealthy attachments, that helped me to really understand and put into perspective what my life experience was about. The man who saved my life also said, which I thought was crazy at the time, said, “Scott, I’m going to give you a vocabulary with which you can understand your life.” I was thinking to myself, what good is a vocabulary gonna do for me in my problems? But truly, that was essential and necessary for me to understand the fullness of my addiction and the fullness of recovery and not going back to the sources of insanity, especially when they’re so easily available, but throwing away days and then weeks and then months of sobriety just for some kind of short-term relief.

FR. SEAN KILCAWLEY Yeah, sometimes I intentionally forget. Do you ever intentionally forget? One of the complaints people often have about sexaholics, anonymous recovery is that everybody has to like check in by their sobriety date. Like, “I’m Bob, I’m a sexaholic, I’m sober since this day”. And, because sometimes there’s like shame that can build around that, but it is also a way of being radically honest.

SCOTT WEEMAN Mm-hmm.

FR. SEAN KILCAWLEY Because we tend to forget that we’re like, that’s where we are right now. And it’s almost like when, a couple of years ago, I lost 65lbs and I became very aware of the way that I use food to manage my mood. It was, it was a huge grace and, but sometimes I will avoid the scale if I had a lot of carbs for a couple of days and I just won’t step on the scale. And I know I should step on the scale because it would keep me accountable. And I’d be like, yeah, I ate a bunch of stuff today and I need to make sure that tomorrow I’m back on track again. And I’ll just like not step on the scale because I don’t want to look at it. And I’ll tell myself, well, I’m going to go run like 15 miles first and then I’ll weigh myself. And so it’s just, I don’t know, it’s like keeping secrets from ourselves. And there’s lots of ways that happens to, like I remember a family member who lived alone and they kept their beer under the sink. Like they live alone and they hid their beer under the sink so that when they opened the fridge, they didn’t have to confront the fact that they were drinking again or, that’s analogous to like deleting our web histories and not stepping on the scale and like all these kinds of things, like the ways that we even can hide our behavior from ourself, which, I think is another manifestation of denial.

SCOTT WEEMAN I would, yeah, would keep my mail. I would get a bunch of mail from delinquent bills not being paid and other things which were natural consequences of my addictive behaviors. And I would just stuff them in a drawer. And when I got sober, I had to go through all this stuff and certainly had some support and help in doing that. But I mean, my denial was so thick that I wasn’t even willing to open up the mail to see what the truth was of bank statements or debts and other things like that. And I think that if we’re honest with ourselves, a good question to ask is, “What is the mail that I’m not opening today? What are the things that I’m avoiding from?” What is the truth that I’m avoiding in order to rationalize the continuation of these pleasure or power or honor or seeking behaviors and substances. How do families manifest, how do you see families manifesting that same kind of denial within the context of addiction?

FR. SEAN KILCAWLEY I think it’s really hard for family members to, again, to address consequences. Like I’m thinking of a couple of families in particular right now where there’s deep hurt because of somebody’s addiction, but what they fight about is “You don’t listen to me” and so they’re not actually bringing the pain of their loved ones drinking or drugging or whatever it is. They’re not actually like talking about the pain caused by that behavior. They’re just talking about other pain, which it’s not helpful. So one, they’re in denial of the fact that they’re in deep pain because of this addiction. They might be in denial that they’re powerless over the addiction because they’re trying to fix it. But it also can leave that family member stuck because it’s taking away the consequences that might lead to denial breaking for them. But it’s just really hard, you know, like I remember I was just thinking about this the other day. My father was in recovery between, when I was 6–19 and then he started drinking again and I was really worried about him. And I remember having to like plan out a confrontational conversation with him where I was able to express my concern that if he kept drinking, he wouldn’t even be around at my ordination. He may have interpreted that as I wasn’t going to invite him. I was really worried he wouldn’t be alive. And there was some good in that, like he did thank me and he actually went to a meeting the next day and started to get kind of back on track at that time. But those are really hard. They’re just really hard conversations and yeah.

SCOTT WEEMAN Consequences are a great means to break through denial. And oftentimes families concerned, loving, caring, well-intended family members don’t want to see the suffering of a child or a spouse or a parent. And so oftentimes we’ll assume those consequences themselves and therefore not allow the consequences to be a great teacher. And therefore just oftentimes exacerbate the addiction even further. And when we talk about addiction being a family disease, a family spiritual disease, this is part of how that manifests within a family. And so having someone who can walk with us through the process of, “No, I’m not going to pay for your car to be towed this time around.”, or “I’m sorry, I can’t bail you out of jail today.” And those might be extreme cases, but even, “No, I’m not going to call in to work for you today.” Or, you know, all the things that we do in order to protect our loved ones from the consequences of addiction seemingly exacerbate and continue the addiction. Whereas that’s exactly, if we can personify the addiction for a moment, that’s exactly what the addiction would want. And when we talk about the addiction starting to call the shots in the family, that’s exactly what it is. It’s calling those shots and deciding, you know what, we’re just gonna keep this more of a secret and we’re going to spread the consequences out amongst all of the family and keep this person within the grip and the enslavement of addiction, whatever it might be.

FR. SEAN KILCAWLEY Yeah. And I think my experience growing up, I would have said “My dad’s addiction didn’t really affect me because he didn’t drink for the most of the part while I was growing up.” and then the more I learned, whether from recovery literature, the philosophical and theological anthropology that I’ve studied, like our relational dynamic was very much still, the relational dynamic of a family with addiction. And there was a kind of denial, like it didn’t affect me. It’s like, used to say “My parents divorced didn’t affect me because I was out of the house already.” and I think that’s pretty common. I hear it from a lot of people at least, and then I’m just kind of like, “Oh, okay, well, thank God for that.” and it might’ve, and, if there’s anything that needs to be healed, our Lord wants to heal it. And I think sometimes when we, as family members, we take on the consequence of somebody else’s sin, like we’re, really taking over the Lord’s job. Because it’s His job to take on the consequence of the sin of the world, not ours. And we might say, “Oh well like, but I’m called to be like Jesus”, but at the same time, like we need to leave room for Jesus to be Jesus. And that’s something that is, it’s one of those sneaky… it’s one of those sneaky things that takes us actually out of relationship with the Lord. When we start doing His job for Him, or we forget that He’s the Lord and we forget that He’s the Savior and so like family members of addicts, like their recovery programs for them that are very good and they’re very effective. And, they’re also very hard to, admit that we need sometimes.

SCOTT WEEMAN Yep. Yes, it can be hard to accept that someone else’s behavior has impacted us. And it’s not very uncommon for upon a request or a suggestion to “Have you been to an Al-Anon meeting before? Well, this isn’t my problem. It’s his problem or her problem.” and yeah, that’s again, another manifestation of addiction. I love what you just shared, Father. And I think that’s really well articulated how leaving room and space for Jesus to be Jesus and inviting him into the process and truly being open, surrendering, but not surrendering on our own terms. Our denial would have us surrender on our own terms, which is not surrender whatsoever. I do want to try to keep each of these episodes to about an hour long, not too much longer. And again, we can and we will continue on this and other topics in the future. Before we do close, we do want to invite you to send us your questions. If you’ve got a question that you’d like answered on the podcast, feel free to send it our way… podcast at catholicinrecovery.com. Please send it to where it will be gratefully received. We have kind of a blend of two questions here, which we’ll answer in one swoop. “How do I know if I’ve gotten to the point where it’s bad enough that I need recovery?” and another which may not seem on the surface to be related, but I”’ve tried everything and nothing seems to work for me. What should I do?” how might you respond to a question like that, Father?

FR. SEAN KILCAWLEY So my simple answer, the first one is if you think you might have a problem, I would explore that. You know, like, don’t wait around until you’re bad enough to need help. We all could have gotten help earlier and didn’t. And so like you don’t have to like, kind of like that guy said to me once, you don’t have to go all the way to the bottom of the escalator. And, I think sometimes people have this idea that “Recovery groups are for people that are really bad.”, or like, “I’ll do anything like, okay, I’m going to do. Like for lust addiction, I’m going to do Covenant Eyes and I’m going to do this kind of like accountability group. And I’m going to do, I’m going to read scripture more. I want to make more holy hours”. But like going to a recovery group meeting about the sneeze, excuse me, just seems so… it just seems so extreme to go to recovery meeting. It seems more extreme to go to recovery meeting and it really doesn’t have to be like, if you’re doing something that you don’t want to do, you might have a problem. And to the person who thinks they’ve tried everything, I usually ask, okay, tell me what you’ve tried. Because there’s, they might be trying things that don’t work for anybody. So a very specific example, somebody who’s thinking of being a seminarian, but they were struggling because they, they’re still struggling with lust and manifested in masturbation and pornography. And they said, “Well, I’ve tried everything and nothing works for me.” And all they’ve really tried is filters and filters, like, “I’ve done filters and I’ve like read some chastity blogs.” okay, so there’s all these other things you haven’t tried to do. There’s like going to 12-step groups. So there’s going to counseling. There’s going, you know, to this. Well, I’ve gone to 12-step groups. Okay. Did you go to, did you do a 90 and 90, which is 90 meetings and 90 days? Did you get a sponsor? Do you call three people in the group every day? Well, no, I don’t really do that. Okay. So then you haven’t done it. So before we throw in the towel and think that we’re hopeless because we’re special and like other people can get help, but I can’t because I’m so different than the rest of the universe. Maybe just try going all in and see what happens, you know, like, sometimes we throw around the phrase “special snowflakes”, talking, I mean, it became popular, on talking about college campuses, but it’s actually like a recovery term first. Like I’m pretty sure it’s in the book, the Big Book and cause that, cause we all think that we’re a “special snowflake” that like my life is so different than everybody else’s that nothing will work for me. And as soon as we start thinking that way, we’re in trouble. And I think that I do think that, especially for those of us in the church, like it could be. The more involved we are in our parish, when we have an addiction, the harder it is to get free because it sort of increases shame and that could be a whole other podcast topic actually.

SCOTT WEEMAN And I’m sure it will be. Yeah, in response to the idea of “How do know that it’s gotten so bad that I need recovery?”, this is something that I think that we need to come to our own conclusions around. And what was helpful for me was hearing the stories of others who had been in my shoes and had made some of the same rationalizations that I had who have experienced some of the same consequences as I had. And some of those people experienced far greater consequences. And it could have been very simple to just think, well, I’m not that bad yet. And I think that some people do find that challenge when we’re looking for the differences and not the similarities. And I think too, our denial is really a force that wants to find any kind of reason that keeps us out of surrender, keeps us away from total surrender. And that might be, the recovery meetings, at the recovery meetings, they refer to God as a “higher power”. And some people have some weird interpretations of their higher power. And, you know, how could I be around or learn from someone whose higher power is the doorknob or a soccer ball or something along those lines? And this clearly can’t be for me. And therefore there must not be any hope for me. And, or maybe I’m just not that bad. Maybe I can get along with this because… I haven’t lost my wife or my husband or my house or I haven’t spent any time in prison or a list of other things that we haven’t yet, which is why when we get into the first step, I think it’s helpful to write out those “yets”. Like if we are to continue along this journey based on the experiences of others, what are some of those “yets” that would be experienced if we were to return to or not find freedom continued on this pathway? But in hearing the similarities and recognizing, you know, maybe that is something that I’ve been through, or I have felt that way, or I have had that kind of same internal response. I’ve also never really found maybe this is just my own experience. But if you’re taking an assessment that needs to be, you know, like, “Do you have a problem with alcohol?” or “Do you have a problem with pornography” assessment? People that don’t have a problem with those things typically aren’t confronted with an assessment such as those.

SCOTT WEEMAN Now I think that it can be helpful to see, you know, kind of what are some standard behaviors, but, you know, even just being confronted with such an assessment might be a sign that there might be some need for change or movement in your life.

FR. SEAN KILCAWLEY Yeah. Someone once said to me, “Normal drinkers never wonder if they’re a normal drinker.”

SCOTT WEEMAN Yeah. Yeah. And I recognize there’s some nuance here differently as well, whereas like, you know, a drink in itself or taking a drink in its, by its, you know, just in a vacuum is not, is not sinful. Other things, some, you know, like hard drug use or pornography use or those things, whereas one instance of that, we can’t look at pornography like a gentleman or maintain, you know, cooperate with God’s grace while engaging in pornography or other compulsive behaviors. But for some, you know, food, for example, or drinking and things, we can do those with some moderation and it not be sinful or be detrimental. Certainly it puts us at risk, but some haven’t made that conversion from a cucumber to a pickle yet. All right, well, we’ll wrap up. Thank you, Father Sean. Stay tuned for future episodes. Again, subscribe to the Catholic in Recovery podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. Give us a rating. That will be helpful for us to share the news and get us in front of get this message of hope put in front of others. Subscribe to the Catholic in Recovery YouTube channel. Help us spread the word about the Catholic in Recovery Podcast by sharing with friends, family members, and others in your community. And we welcome you to join the Catholic in Recovery community by going to catholicinrecovery.com, where you can find a directory of virtual and in-person CIR meetings, read engaging articles related to all facets of recovery and faith, and access our digital platform, CIR +, where you will find a host of video modules, courses, webinar recordings, daily recovery reflections and more, take that leap. If something in this episode has kind of caught your attention and you recognize that, you know what, maybe I do need to find some help. Run, don’t walk to the next available 12-step meeting, whether that be a Sexaholics Anonymous meeting, an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting, a Narcotics Anonymous meeting, an Al-Anon meeting, and I could go on and on. Meetings are available all around the world, in-person and virtually, every moment of every day. We encourage you to find help. You are not alone and our Lord is good and you’ll be in our prayers. Amen?

FR. SEAN KILCAWLEY Amen.

SCOTT WEEMAN All right, well, thank you. Thank you all for listening and we’ll see you next time.